Is this teacher tenure system a good idea for NYC?

@Uptowngirl: I agree with you. This is a hard call to make. There are untrained, incompetent teachers around. But there are also a lot of brat kids to. So maybe it is a judgment call? I really don't have a clear answer for that right now without reading all the facts and analyzing everything.

That doesn't account for the fact that kids come to a class with all sorts of background problems and issues, and there may only be so much a teacher can do.

@Uraniumfish I agree with you, but I wonder what can be done to actually motivate teachers to try, rather than waiting around to receive their pensions.

@Uraniumfish, ajadedidealist I totally agree with you..

Perhaps DBlack they should have a performance linked bonus scheme which will help motivate teachers..wait do teachers already get bonus?

@Freyja4: That was a bad teacher. Obviously, he went through college quickly and just barely passed his courses. Unless he is just ignorant. Some school systems fail at background checks. Maybe if they had checked him out thoroughly, they would have found that he was not fit to be a teacher.

I am with uptowngirl - I think teachers should surely be rewarded for a job well done, but restricting tenure to the performance of the students is not always going to be fair.

Well, maybe they should do it on a trial basis. If it's a tenure position within one school . . . aren't all the same students involved? If one teacher had below average marks for his students and another didn't . . . . same students . . .it's the teacher.

@JenMac that's a fairly workable solution.

@Freyja4: Every school system in the country is different. They have their own rules. Whereas with Job Corp, that is a government run institution from the Department of Labor. Each Job Corp was governed by the DOL and so had the same rules and guidelines. No independent ownership existed.

@JenMac But do teachers really always have all of the same students? Doesn't seem logical..

At my school they had various levels for each subject (remedial, advanced placement, etc) and you can bet that the kids in remedial were all terrors, whereas the kids in honors classes were all motivated, high achievers who showed up, shut up, and did their homework. Obviously the teachers teaching honors classes had a way easier job of it.

I think most schools know internally who their best teachers are and who their worst teachers are. We always knew the teachers' reputations with other kids even before we had them as teachers. But I bet there are a lot of politics at play in getting teachers promoted or not.

@DBlack Sure thing.

@neversleeps: obviously, it's a crapshoot to some extent. But, for example, there were two AP US History teachers at my school: Rumley and Scudder. Every single year, without fail, Rumley's kids would get majority 4's and 5's on their final exam. Scudder's were 2's and 3's (majority). Granted, Scudder was insanely cool; but, as far as performance, Rumley is clearly the better teacher. And, this is an AP class, so all of the students are advanced and motivated. It seems that, if year after year, one is doing better than another with his students, you couldn't call it unfair.

@Everybody: I am not a school teacher. I did teach at Job Corp and I taught continuing education classes at night and during the day, but am not a certified school teacher. So I cannot comment about classroom sizes and kids in the same class. But what I can say, based on observation, each classroom had about 10 to 20 students for about 4 to 6 weeks, if we are talking about high school. If you are talking about pre-high school days, many teachers taught more than one subject. So one subject would be taught for about an hour, followed by the next subject. Basically, I was in one classroom until the noon bell rang. Then after lunch, I would go to the next classroom until the end of the day bell rang.

@Uraniumfish That's my point exactly.

@JenMac But it's not a competition exclusively between those who teach AP classes. It's unfair to the teachers who get stuck teaching non-honors or non-AP classes - after all, someone's gotta do it.

@NeverSleeps that's right.

@Hhusted what's the point that you are trying to make?

Fair enough, @Jenmac, @neversleeps. It's true that some teachers are always better than others. But often it's up to the students to WANT to learn - and the teacher tenure system completely ignores that. After all, we're primarily dealing with non-AP-classes here

Here's a new report that states that the mayor is seeking to make NYC teacher tenures more merit-based in an effort to improve education standards in the city.
http://dnainfo.com/20100927/manhattan/city-pairs-up-with-gates-foundation-cuny-ibm-for-wideranging-education-reforms

@uptowngirl Way to go Gates foundation. I'm so grateful to Bill Gates for doing great things with his money.

@Freyja4: I don't think any school system will be willing to open classes longer than they do now. The longer the school is open, more money needs to be used to pay the teachers and for the classroom itself.

@Everyone I kind of agree with Obama and he is talking of year round school but an extension for a few weeks of the summer holidays.. I think US kids get the maximum amount of summer break, I do understand some kids need to/ want to work but if they do well in Math and Science their chances of getting good internships are that much higher am I right? American kids have to come up to speed with the rest of the world as we live in an increasingly globalized world where more than ever skills need to be transferable, the US can't afford to be insular in current times and if education reform is the way to go ..so be it

I am glad to see what responses everyone has about Obama's ideas regarding the education of students. I do agree that more money would go into extending days and hours spent in school. It's already hard enough to get money for schools that need it NOW. Adding more hours would cost more money. Mostly to teachers. Who are, I agree under paid. It is a toss up for them I am sure. Longer hours equals more money or more money for the hours already in place. Though, currently at the school district my youngest daughter is in, they have after school programs and not just for students to catch up with work they've missed or haven't turned in. But to encourage learning. The Kindergarteners even get it if the parents opt for it. I wanted my daughter to take crafts but the classes filled up by the end of the day they put up the sign-up sheet.l Which personally I think is stupid considering their shouldn't be a limit. My daughter would have been at school until 5:30PM. I think I may have stated that before. Sorry for re-iterating unnessacarily. So, in a since, after school programs are an entension to regular school days. Often they are a option to the parents. Other, like for a close friend of mine, has to have his son attend the classes becuase his son has failed to turn in homework. I think maybe, after school programs should be more focused on then extending the school day all together. Includingly, it should be focused on for he students struggling in any way shape or form. Would anyone here dispute that possibly a more strict "passing" policy should be in place? In Texas, what you would normally consider a B is actually a C by their grading system. Teachers there are tuaght to be concerned if the student is showing any signs of distress and to report it to the parents in a concerned matter. Though I, as a parent, would not "force" my child to get a certain grade, I would like them to meet a higher standard that would be enforced by the school districts themselves. I once over heard a fellow student back during my Sophmore year claimed that her parents were going to be rather upset when she got a 85% in her then-current overall grade. My mother would have been happy. Though a 85% is considered a C in parts of Texas I consider it a B. Maybe it 's time to make the grading tougher than what we remember.

Just to add, I don't think pre-schooler's should get homework assignments. They are just too young.

Also, I have here a great web page for the new movie "Waiting For Superman". It's about the education system as it is right now. www.waitingforsuperman.com

Sorry for misspellings as well. Busy, busy busy with errands, college, kids and what other things that drive us adults mad! LOL

I think both uptowngirl and Uraniumfish make good points - American kids AREN'T up to par with the rest of the free world, and there is much more in the school systems that needs fixing before you can go around lengthening the school year. Not that I am opposed to doing that.

@NeverSleeps; That's right. Fix the problems in the school first, then tinker with the school year, if warranted.